Article - Ukraine: Policy Programme - how to stop the bloodshed? [eng]

The studio of the program "Policy" discusses what is happening in the South-East of Ukraine. On both sides of the conflict - new casualties, including civilians. It is clear that military action was included in the hard phase. Experts in the Studio trying to understand what effect is the strengthening of military operations after the election of the President of Ukraine, to hope for people who are constantly under threat of his life, and what to do to bloodshed stopped as soon as possible.

Les membres du studio, le programme "la Politique" discute de ce qui se passe dans le sud-est de l'Ukraine. Les deux côtés du conflit - nouvelles pertes humaines, y compris civils. Il est clair que l'action militaire a été incluse dans la « phase dure ». Les experts du studio essayant de comprendre ce que l'effet à propos du renforcement d'opérations militaires après l'élection du Président de l'Ukraine, espérer les gens qui sont constamment menacés avec mort, et que faire  à propos  le carnage se soit arrêté dès que possible.

Lien en russe - in Russian: http://www.1tv.ru/prj/tolstoy/vypusk/31858

L'Ukraine: comment eviter le carnage?

Participants:

• Sergey Shargunov, writer 
• Alexander Kofman, head of the Secretariat of the coordinating Council of the public movement "South-East"
• Andrey Isaev, Chairman of the State Duma committee on labor, social policy and veterans' affairs (fraction "United Russia")
• Vladimir Zubanov, former adviser to president of Ukraine Viktor Yanukovych
• Vladimir Skachko, political scientist, chief editor of the newspaper "Kievsky Telegraph" (Ukraine)
• Vladislav Shurygin, military expert, chief editor of the newspaper "Journalistic Truth"
• Sergei Markov, Chairman of the Inter-Commission Task Force for International Cooperation of the Public Chamber of the Russian Federation
• Dmitry Orlov, Director General of Agency of political and economical communications
• Alexander Dugin, scientist, philosopher, leader of the International Eurasian movement
• Karen Shakhnazarov, drector, people's artist of Russia
• Vladimir Gromov ,Commissioner of staff of the Army of the South-East of the Lugansk People's Republic
• Egor Kvasnyuk, coordinator of the liberation movement (Odessa, Ukraine)
• Maxim Petrukhin, Deputy of the Supreme Council of Donetsk People's Republic
• Vladimir Alekseev, Deputy of the Kharkiv Regional Council, expert of OSCE and Council of Europe

 PETER TOLSTOY: Good evening. On air the program "Policy". Today we are again discussing what is happening in  South-East of Ukraine. This is not politics, this is war. New victims on both sides of the conflict. Today there have been reports that in Krasnyy Liman Ukrainian army  soldiers shot  wounded in hospital. Don't know how to continue, they will be confirmed or refuted, but, in general, one thing is clear that military action in south-eastern Ukraine is deeply in a severe phase.

PT: Bonsoir . Sur air le programme "Politique ". Aujourd'hui nous discutons de nouveau ce qui se passe dans le sud-est de l'Ukraine. Ceci n'est pas la politique, ceci est la guerre. Nouvelles victimes des deux côtés du conflit. Aujourd'hui il y a eu des rapports qu'a Krasnyy Liman de soldats de l’armée ukrainienne ont fusillés les blessés dans un l'hôpital. Ne savez pas comment continuer, si ça sera confirmé ou réfuté, mais, en général, une chose est claire que l’action de l'armée en le sud-est de l’Ukraine est profondément dans une phase grave.

Part 1 

P. TOLSTOY: You are talking about the inhabitants of Donbass, about peaceful citizens, that among them there are many victims. And did you talk to the people who keep weapons to protect them and try to resist? What are these people? What motivation do they have?

C. SHARGUNOV: There are not many professional military. And here we must understand that in Slavyansk itself the ratio between, [will not abandon this word]? Punitive (ndr: SD /NG?) units and militia is 1 to 100. That is all the power, though not the most advanced, but still, the Ukrainian army now has on this territory. These people are different. I spoke with a university history student, I spoke with ‘Shakhtar’, I talked to an engineer. Yes, there was a retired seaman. These are people of different ages. There is a certain number of volunteers who are coming. For example, with me across the border went a couple of Muscovites, two days later they were killed. Young guys: one - from the center of Moscow, Makovki, the other from Ramenki district. Sincere patriots, who, as the people went into Transnistria, hastened to rescue to own. But mostly, it is necessary to emphasize that the absolute majority of militias are the local people, the people of Donbass.

P. TOLSTOY: There is a sense that each strike, air raids, artillery shelling, bombardment convinces those people who live in the South-East, the impossibility of any further joint life? Or else is this door not completely closed? In the spirit of people is there any more opportunity to be reconciled, to agree?

C. SHARGUNOV: you have to understand that the numbers of the referendum, which took place on 11 may, wasn’t invented, and not taken from the air, when they say that 90% of people voted for a separation from Ukraine. Many blamed that it was not done in a proper environment. Yes, already bullets are already flying. But we must remember what the results were in the elections in this territory. The people, the same 90%, voted for the Party of regions Viktor Yanukovych, who was seen as friendly to Russia. And the attitude to Kiev now turns into red-hot anger, because people are waiting for help from people, asking only one question: that's strong, will he now protect? Everywhere there is the tricolor, everywhere “Russia “written on walls ". And this mood must have changed. Perhaps, for several months there was something a little different, including in relation to Russia. But now neutral people, even those who were completely aside, not just feel involved in the war, but take up arms. And I know just these people in the field, and now maintain contacts. And they tell me that those who were holed up in their homes [and felt out any policy]?, once the bombs started and destroyed, understood that this is their war.

P. TOLSTOY: What effect has this strengthening of the operation, which we have seen during the week, [more so] in the last days since the election of Mr. Poroshenko? How are people reacting to it? Because actually, anyone who's ever been under fire, understands very well, that is, when you shoot [at]. When on a TV show, it seems that this is, in general, just some dust, and in fact for every person this feeling is completely  instinctive. And how are people reacting? Because it can demoralize anyone [being under] such fire, such operations, and helicopter attacks, whatever.

C. SHARGUNOV: on the one hand, of course, it is fear, fear of people for their children. But most of them remain, because they nowhere to go. And it is clear that if this military operation will continue, I am talking about large-scale killing of people. Because of this 15 thousand left Donetsk, but a million have remained, but already bullets and shells are flying, and a few miles [away]. When the woman went to buy a ticket for her granddaughter, and she lost her head. When an ‘avtoparkova’ walks near the train station, and is killed. I left the militia headquarters in the dark, and immediately stumbled upon a dead body. [Became the phone ]?- it was a local resident, a man of peace. At this moment someone shouted: "Stop!". There was a sniper on the roof. Unfortunately, we do not have complete information as to really how many people are now dying on this earth.

P. TOLSTOY: Thank you. My next question to you as a person, likewise, that came literally from the battlefield. We have no information about the victims, how many actually have died. In your opinion, what figures could you give? Of course, we understand that every life is precious, and here the figures do not decide anything. But it still is very difficult to feel the scale of this, looking at distant planes and helicopters, shelling of towns in Donbass. How many people have died today, do you think?

ALEXANDER KOFMAN, head of the Secretariat of the Coordinating Council of the public movement "South-East": I will give an example. Yesterday helicopters and "donuts"[mortars?] were fired on several villages surrounded by Slavyansk, the same with Semenovka. Information on the dead at the moment [isn’t available], no. But, according to eyewitnesses, the village has almost completely ceased to exist. Guess for yourself, how many people died there. That is, at the moment, in my opinion, this number is in the hundreds, and approaching one thousand. And the situation has reached such a catastrophe, unfortunately, no one can speak of any reconciliation, about some arrangements about some solutions to this issue, in addition to the war of annihilation. We, I mean the representatives of the South-East of Ukraine, often went to your Studio [on the next transfer ?]. In my opinion, [given some] extent by sacrificing his conscience, that instead of standing with guns, we came here. In my opinion, our goal is not reached. The situation has reached the point of no return. I can’t say that Russia was obliged to help. Everyone chooses for themselves. But the situation has not reached such a peak, where there is neither Russia nor the United Nations together with Ukraine will not pull out. It is a fact.

P. TOLSTOY: You know the situation on the ground. How much time do you still have?

A. KOFMAN: Yes we can hold on forever. Roughly 7 million people, residents of Donetsk and Lugansk regions cannot be killed. Well, throw [out] the 500 thousand [protest-minded] to our resistance. 6.5 million. [You would] Have to kill everyone. It is impossible. Well, then tomorrow it all turns into a guerrilla war, the attacks will start. People are driven into a corner, they have nothing to lose. That's all. That is, it will either be for years, or I don't know...

P. TOLSTOY: I Understand. About what I have just said, anything to add?

ANDREI ISAYEV, Chairman of the state Duma Committee on labor, social policy and veterans' affairs, "United Russia": I would like to say only one thing. First: I am sure that Russia - the absolute majority of the citizens here, 90%, and the government of Russia, of course, sees what is happening today in Novorossiya, or in the South-East of Ukraine, as a personal tragedy. It is a tragedy for all of us. Why? Because they are our fellow citizens, former USSR, it is the same with us language, culture and history. These are people who have family ties with us. My wife is from Donetsk, and she knows so many people out there who today are under shelling. This is our tragedy, we understand this very well. 

What is unfolding today at borders is a humanitarian disaster; it fits all definition of a humanitarian catastrophe, 100%. Of course, Russia cannot remain aloof from this situation. Of course, Russia is looking for and will look for ways in providing assistance to residents of Novorossiya, residents of the South-East of Ukraine. First of all, of course, we have to provide humanitarian assistance: to accept refugees, assist with medicines to help [with such] products. We understand that in order to provide normal humanitarian assistance corridors [are needed]. Funds for humanitarian assistance have already accumulated at the Ukrainian border. But, you see, there are three ways by which it can go any state...

P. TOLSTOY: Andrew, sorry, I interrupt you. About humanitarian aid I absolutely agree with you, as I am sure, and 90% of the population, those people who are on the Internet advertising that they will accept children from Donetsk and Lugansk, are ready to give them apartments, rooms in apartments and so on. This is clear, and we all agree. But there is a simple question: why can’t Russia declare a no-fly zone over Donetsk and Lugansk? Russia cannot use its air-defence to close the sky over these two republics and thus deny an opportunity to the present authorities in Kyiv to bomb the people from the air?

A. ISAEV: I would just like to say that the political leadership of Russia, as far as I understand, today is painfully looking for a solution to this issue. Because ditto a no-fly zone, as a rule, must be declared by a decision of the Security Council. You know that several times Russia has initiated a meeting of the Security Council, trying to attract attention. You know what the biased attitude to all Russian cases on this issue. But there are really only three things: either try to negotiate with the Kyiv regime (from my point of view, it is almost impossible, at least so far), or to help the [militia] in Donetsk and Luhansk so that they are able to protect their safety and, in particular, the security of humanitarian corridors, or sending in a peacekeeping contingent. I think the issue now all that Russia is doing is politics.

A. KOFMAN: excuse me, two words literally. I would like to note that UN resolutions are frequently violated by the other party. Therefore, in my opinion, at the moment, to look at the UN reaction on [just] the Russian side just a little unusual, so to speak.

A. ISAEV: We must look not only at the reaction of the UN. I apologize, but there are countries that are our natural allies...

A. KOFMAN: They will forgive, believe me.

A. ISAEV: while they took the highly uncertain position, it is also impossible not to take into account. But I want to say again: we all are interested in that the bloody war crimes, perpetrated by the Kyiv junta, are stopped as soon as possible.

A. KOFMAN: Do you think the people of Donetsk are "brotherly" people? That is not true. The fact of the matter is that Donetsk Russians are considered as the native people. One people, not brotherly.

P. TOLSTOY: Well, we now interrupt for a second this discussion. I have a question to you, Vladimir Alexandrovich. What do you think the Ukrainian authorities achieve, speaking of the separatists, the unity of the country and while on this subject, this anti-terrorist operation with the bombing of residential areas?

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